Mondays hot topics - Gospels in Early Church

Wow, it's been quite a while since I posted any "Hot topics" from the discussion forum but I saw this one and even though it's not Monday thought I'd post it. Here's a good one from "jpurssey" for us to chew on

http://simplegathering.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&p=27853&sid=6324470da731173e1b93da46a8abda43#p27829

I've been thinking about how the Gospels may have been used in the early church and realise that i have heard or read little about it. it is comparatively easy to imagine the letters being read out at some church meeting and also being studied by some church "elders" (I use the word in general terms as I do not want to provoke an argument, but simply to distinguish those with an ability and interest to study them). Even the letters are sometimes long and are quite complex.

I grew up with a lot of verses being used in isolation, and with a loss of context. A lot oi sermons were constructed that way. I doubt very much that the early church used the gospels and letters that way.

I understand that the written gospels were collations of spoken stories that were assembled to give a message to their particular audiences. These would have been the stories that the early christians told to one another and to their non-christian audience. Given the level of literacy, many would needed to have the gospels read to them.

What would have been the circumstances in which the Gospels were read to an audience?

How was a Gospel delivered in its entirety to an audience?

Does anyone know of any scholarship on this matter?

Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? Post them on the forum or in the comments below

Monday's hot topics - How to be like the New Testament/Early church

On the discussion forum - here, Rey has some interesting observations about how to become like the 'New Testament/early church'

How did the early church look like?

First, change locale: get into a house or meet at a river or maybe in the back of the local synagogue until you get kicked out and then go back inot a house or meet at a river.

Second, throw away your Bibles: if you're gentile try to get your hand on a copier to duplicate the Greek version of the Jewish Bible but if you can't afford that buy a scroll at a time and spend your time reading it slowly to memorize it so you can keep the scroll at home/church. With your New Testament rip out all the letters and save maybe one that is nearby your locality. That one, rip out a couple of chapters unless you want to be one of the lucky ones. Definitely rip out 2nd Peter and the Book of Hebrews. If you want to go later down into the 2nd Century then I'll allow you to add maybe the Gospel of Barnabas, the Gospel of Hebrews and you decide if you want 2 Peter, James, Revelation or Hebrews.

Third: elevate Oral tradition too and memorize the gospel in a catchy rhyme.

Christ died
For our sins
According to Scripture
He was buried
And He was raised on the third day
According to Scripture

Fourth: Get together with all our doctrinal disagreements, get together. Charismatics and Cessationists in the same room, Dispensationalists and Amillenialists, Calvinsts and (gasp!) Arminians, Dogs and Cats--total anarchy (man I love Ghostbusters).

Fifth: do a whole bunch of stuff that none of us have recorded.

Post your thoughts in the comments below, or the discussion forum - here, about what you think of Rey's technique for getting back to New Testament Christianity

Monday's hot topics - God in government

I've had a few awesome comments since last Monday's post on my blog about the Ontario Governement considering removing the opening prayer each day.

I've received many emails from panicked Christians saying we have to save this prayer at all costs or else our country is doomed. Others state:

In my opinion, the proposal for removing the Lord's Prayer (repetition issue aside for a moment) from the formal proceedings of the Ontario Legislative Assembly is just one more attempt to entirely remove God from our lives as Canadians...As Christians, I would really hope that we believe in the value of having God's name mentioned (one of the last places where it is) in the Legislative Assembly.

I disagree.

Instead I would agree with Josh Duffy who stated:

I think the govt should launch a massive national persecution campaign against Christianity. Then maybe the Church would be driven underground and the real fruit would begin!! They could start with a simple thing like banning the Bible!!!

What do you think of prayer in government? Should church and state ever be together? Should we gasp, or cheer, when our government starts removing God from government? Post your comments below or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics: Rediscovering the early church

Over the past few years on this blog and on the forum - here - I've been digging in to the "early church". It seems I'm not alone. New forum member Elisa tipped us off to the cover story of this month's Christianty Today. The article focuses on this trend, a new generation looks for much deeper roots than their denominations offer. Here is an excerpt from the CT Feb08 cover story:

In Massachusetts, Campbell spoke with Sharon Carlson, a young woman raised in the Plymouth Brethren movement, a free-church tradition that eschews liturgy, tradition, and hierarchy. Carlson described the Communion experience as "tearing up bread and passing around cups of grape juice after men in the assembly spontaneously stood and repeated the words that they felt prompted by the Holy Spirit to say," and she felt that was no longer enough. As Campbell reports, " 'I want to be more connected to history, the history of the Christian church,' said Carlson, who relishes the knowledge that she is worshiping the way Christians have for centuries. 'There have been generations of people before me saying the same prayers.'

How do you feel about this trend to discover the ancient? As Protestants do we get frightened by reading about the ancient (Catholic) church? Or is it helpful to rediscover how people did church in the first century? Isn't that what the brethren movement was all about? Post your thoughts in the comments below or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics - An Agnostic Follows The Bible For A Year...

Yes I know it's not Monday but forum member Michelle posted a very interesting link today on the forum - here. The article details an agnostic who "follows the Bible literally for one year". Michelle writes:

I thought this was a pretty interesting article to pass along. I know that for myself, even though I don't consider myself Christian I have adopted a lot of the Christian morals and practices. Even prayer. It's not that I don't believe God exists or even that Christ exists. I just don't believe the bible is the full story. Maybe it was divinely inspired, maybe it wasn't.

To check out the article and interact with Michelle on the forum click here

Monday's hot topics - The Word of God

Recently on the forum a fellow named jpurssey stated that he believed Jesus was the Word of God, not the Bible:

I also believe that Jesus, not the Bible, is the Word. The Bible is a very useful collection of texts

Many people reacted to this statement, and a poll was started. So far it seems most people believe Jesus AND the Bible are the Word of God.

What do you think? Is Jesus the Word of God and the Bible simply a record of him. Or are the actual pages in the Bible the Word of God? Or both? Or neither? Post your thoughts in the comments below, or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics - Why can't I own a Canadian?

I posted an article on the forum, which raises some questions about applying Old Testament laws.

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

Interesting. How do we know which laws to apply and which not to? If we are under grace then are these laws abolished? If so, how can we argue against homosexuality. If not, then how do we know which laws apply to us today?? Post your thoughts in the comments below, or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics - Christians and Environmentalism

Forum member Daoust posed a thought provoking question in the form of a hypothesis on the forum:

Hypothesis: Christians who have a general understanding of the 'big picture' of world events, ie. where the world came from and where it is going to are less likely to be concerned about or active in environmental issues, environmental policy, and environmentally friendliness...Agree or disagree with my hypothesis?

Do you agree that Christians should not be concerned about the environment? Do you disagree and think that Christians should be more active environmentally than others? Post your thoughts in the comments, or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics - The Athiest's dilemma

Forum member Paul Blackmore recently posted about his experience with those who have turned away from Christ and are now atheists. Blackmore states:

Here then are my observations for what they are worth re: this modern-day trend away from the Christian faith by those who formerly professed it...The athiest is first sold a "christian bill of goods" that turns out in the end to be riddled with falsehood. Upon discovering such untruths within the bill of goods that he has been sold; he abandons and rejects the faith

Blackmore lists 4 or 5 reasons why he believes folks chose to turn away, laying much of the blame for this on Calvinistic teaching.

What is your experience with those who have turned away? Is Calvinism at the root of the problem? Post your thoughts in the comments below of on the forum

Monday's hot topics - Running from God to sex, drugs and alcohol

Forum member Cole lamented recently that a friend of hers had turned to drugs and alcohol. She titled the topic "Running from God to sex, drugs and alcohol" and wants to know:

what happens when a Christian runs from God to sex drugs and alcohol to dim the pain of knowing they should be with God but think they aren't strong enough? how does that happen? any input at all would be appreciated...what do i do? what do i say? how does one deal with a Christian alcoholic and drug user?

A Christian alcoholic? Christian drug user? That's a tough one. Haven't heard a sermon at church on that one. Post your thoughts in the comments below, or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics: Jabe/Uplook says - We need pastors??!!

GASP!! BIFF!! ACK!!BOOM!! ____ (insert other batman sounds)

I just finished reading the latest Uplook magazine. On page 13 Jabe Nicholson really shocked me with his article entitled We need more biblical pastors. MORE PASTORS in the assemblies? This is a first!! Wow.

Nicholson hits the nail on the head when he writes:

"So concerned that we not have the unbiblical version of pastors (which is what??), have we neglected training those obviously gifted to be the biblical kind? (absolutely!). Often in our minds we replace the 'pastors' in Ephesians 4 with assembly elders. But that is not the idea at all...Ephesians 4 pastors are men whose gift is to be utilized in extending the word of God beyond existing assemblies

Neglected? I'd say they've been down right chased out of town. Everywhere I go I meet people who 'grew up brethren' but ended up as pastors in denominational churches.

Although Nicholson puts 'quotations' around the word 'pastors' at times in the article, I couldn't agree more! Assemblies are dying from lack of leadership and vision and the best young people are heading out the door. I'm not completely sure if Jabe is advocating having pastors in 'existing' assemblies or simply having apostolic pastors who can start new ones? If the latter is the case I think the word 'apostole' is a better word, but I'll take pastor any day! I may be a bit biased, but I really feel that this is the biggest issue in assemblies today and I'm giving Jabe props for even bringing the topic up.

So what do you think about the big bad P word? I thought the P word was outlawed among the brethren because of one-man ministry and our anti-clergy stance. Maybe the tide is turning? Do you have a pastor at your assembly? What do you think about pastors? Post your thoughts below in the comments or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topic - Eternal security

Forum member Adrian posted on the forum some thoughts on Psalm 103 recently. These thoughts have lead to a discussion on eternal security, since Psalm 103 states:

verse 12 - He has removed our sins as far from us as the east is from the west.

The idea being that if God removes someone's sins, there's no way for them to bring those sins back. God has graciously removed all sin and guilt and an individual is free to live a life devoted to God.

Considering this thought I posed the question:

If we say 'once saved, always saved' then what happens in God's eyes when someone 'denies the Lord with cursing'? Are they still saved? Is there a clause in our eternal security doctrine that states that someone is eternally secure until they reject Christ? If so then it isn't eternal security...right?

What are your thoughts on 'eternal security'? Is it eternal? What does it depend on? If someone is a Christian and then turns back what happens to them? Are their sins still forgiven? Post your thoughts in the comments below, or on the forum - click here

Monday's hot topics - Public vs. Private church

Most of us in the West are used to public church meetings, buildings and freedom to gather as we like. There are big churches, little churches and even The church of elvis. So many churches that it's tough to remember a time when church wasn't public.

In early Christianity however public church was all but impossible without imprisonment, beatings and martyrdom. The Roman Empire tried to snuff out the light any way it could. Back then church had to be underground, secret and could cost you your life. There are modern day examples, like China, where the underground church is growing at tremendous cost.

Seeing this, how do we in the West who have the freedom balance public vs private church meetings? Should we go back to early Christianity and go underground? Or should we use our freedom and meet only in public?

On the forum pherwxristosposted his thoughts on the matter:

Having spent some years in the house church movement and appreciating the advantages of an intimate venue, I'm trying to figure out a way to balance out the emphasis on meeting "in public" (which here i mean at the chapel building) and "from house to house." I think the early church in Jerusalem met in public (various courts at the Temple) and also met to break bread in their homes. I think the earliest church(es) in Ephesus also clearly (from Acts) met in public (lecture hall of Tyranus?) and "from house to house."

So what do you think? How do we strike the balance? Should we go back to house church only? Should we go underground? Or use our freedom to have public meetings and buildings? Post your thoughts in the comments below or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics - How do you know??

On the discussion forum our friend cole has asked the age old question:

how did you know that the person you are married to is the person you were supposed to marry? and what if they took off from God for a while before you were married, would you have waited for them?

How did you know? What would you do? Help cole out by posting your answer in the comments below, or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics - 'God's standards are actually quite low"

On the forum a good friend of mine posted a sermon he preached recently. At the very end he quotes Desmond Tutu as saying “You may be surprised who you find in heaven, God has a soft spot for sinners, his standards are actually quite low.” Post your thoughts on this statement in the comments below or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics - Why do we do what we do when we do it?

On the forum Meghan posed an interesting questions for everyone - Why do we do what we do when we do it? While there are many ways to apply that statement - personal habits, work, family, etc. Meghan has focused our attention on the pernicious issue of dressing up for church:

*I sometimes even wonder if the people who deem that we must wear a suit and tie, "sunday" dresses, etc. actually have it backwards. The Mennonite men do not wear ties because they believe it is a symbol of the worldly business man. I can't help but think, at times, that if our churches are run like businesses/institutions, then the wearing of ties, etc. is very appropriate. The sad thing is that this is not what the churches are to be...What say ye?

So how about it folks. Suit and tie? Jacket. Sport coat? Shorts? Sandals? Ripped Jeans? Does God care? Post your thoughts on the forum - here - or in the comments below.

Monday's Hot Topics - Sunday - Sunday - Sunday!!

So what did you do this Sunday? Watch a car race (hence the title)? Did you sleep in? Have a late brunch? Or attend church?

On the forum, our beloved WikkidPerson has once again provoked us, this time to thinking about Sunday:

Obviously, saying "God, I'm only going to give you one day of the week, as I live six others with less to do with You, I'll have one outfit that's dedicated to You and wear other stuff the rest of the week, I'll sing one kind of music for You on that day and sing other stuff the rest of the time, and I'll hang out with certain people on that day, but with my real friends the rest of the week" obviously, saying that is nonsense. What wife would put up with that kind of treatment, let alone our creator?

How to shift the focus from "See God? It's Sunday and I'm at church singing hymns with Christian people!" to "God, I see You in the course of events that make up my day-to-day living."

Do you think Sunday is more important than other days? Does God think it's more important? Post your thoughts on the forum - here - or in the comments below

Monday's hot topics - KJV only "ill-informed"

What does KJVO mean? Perhaps you've heard of it. This movement states that the only *real* Bible is the English one translated by King James (in 1611). Right off the top there are major questions about how this can be, since the original Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew. On the forum this topic has arisen, and recently forum member IHA took a shot at this idea:

the entire KJVO movement has arisen, and every present-day KJV-onlyite is a direct spiritual descendant of these ill-informed men. And as the movement has progressed from one generation to the next, with each new generation arising from intellectually incestuous in-breeding, the views have become more radicalized and extreme.

What are your thoughts on the King James Version? Is it the only *real* Bible? Are KJVonlyists off base? Post your thoughs in the comments, or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics - 153 fish???

A member of the forum named In_the_Lords_army posted this thought provoking Bible question:

John 21:11 says: Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken

Does anyone want to try and explain why the number of fish that they caught is specified? I don't imagine anyone knows for sure...but all suggestions are accepted! Smile

waddyathink? Why 153 and not 154. Is there some hidden code or significance? Post your response in the comments or on the forum - here

Monday's hot topics - The everlasting Hell challenge!

Our resident heretic on the forum Drew Costen has put a challenge out there to all of us who believe in a real, everlasting Hell:

Demonstrate convincingly that the idea that "those who die without putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone to save them (apart from any works) will end up in a place of torment called hell forever with no chance of escape"

Now, I'll admit that arguing with Drew sometimes resembles trying to wrestle with a greased pig, but he does get us thinking about the afterlife and our eternal destiny. What if hell really exists? What if you end up there? What could you do to avoid going there? What will it be like? Do you believe in Hell? Do you know Bible verses that talk about everlasting torment? click on over to the forum and show Drew your stuff - here

He also raises a counter point in my mind - If we DO believe in Hell....what are we doing about it? Do you believe in Hell? If so then it's time to get warning people!!! So how about it, are you up to taking the Everlasting Hell challenge? Click here to post your thoughts on the forum